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nakedmanrun

Tuesday, October 25, 2005

Critical literacy: rub two texts together

Please read the 2 texts written by Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America. Post your comments! Enjoy!!!

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html


http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JefVirg.html

posted by Frank at Tuesday, October 25, 2005

23 Comments:

  • The Declaration of Independence is an interesting read now and then. I sometimes forget its importance and the reason for writing it. The seperation from England was formally through this document. The queries he wrote on Virgina, I read some but not all, were not very interesting.

    Eric

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:25 AM  

  • I love a good Revolution! There is hardly a better reason to love mankind than these magnificent displays of independence through unity, freedom through violence, and righteousness through rebellion. I love how The People declare that their King, their Law, their culture, and thousands of years of tradition are Wrong! And they're right... or at least so it seems. Good for them for fighting for what they think is just, for recognizing the rights of man, for demanding a change.
    But wait a minute, Jefferson. Is this "Vox Populi" sincere? Do you really mean all of those flowery words? The "voice of the people" is not just a whole bunch of rich old white dudes, unfortunately for you. There are others in your country you may want to take note of. And the phrase "All men are created equal..."- it means nothing unless it is believed and fought for, with no exceptions.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:24 PM  

  • The Declaration of Independence is often overlooked and forgotten, and do people truly understand it? I am truly impressed and honored by the men who started our country. Jefferson listed everything that King of Great Britain [George III] did to piss off people, giving them the energy needed to start their own country. The initiative Jefferson took was immense, and compared to today, even if the goverment was doing an awful job, who would be our generation's Jefferson? I feel as if people today are so lazy, never taking the initiative to DO something. People love to complain, but never DO anything to change the sitation which is upsetting them. But, I feel as if Jefferson is two-faced after reading the second document. Especially in section 185-7, Jefferson ignores his philosophy of all men being equal, earning the rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Jefferson back pedals hardcore when he begins to discuss race, making incredibly ignorant comments between black, white, and Native American people. Also, he discusses ridicolous differences between men and women. I was apalled by his ignorant comments, asking myself how he wrote The Declaration of Independence.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:18 AM  

  • I agree with Ashley. The Declaration of Independence isn't even stressed in our school systems anymore. I went to public school in 3 different states for the most part. And in all those schools, I can ever remember once actually reading the Declaration of Independence. Sure I've heard of it, and I know a few choice phrases, but I've never actually read it till now. Isn't that sad? I wonder if it's still the same way now. I assume it is. I think our students NEED to know where they come from, what ideals our country was founded on, and what principles our great-relatives fought for. It's a shame that we do not stress these more in the classroom, and not just in one class, during one year of schooling. But in all the years of schooling. It's not something that should be taught then forgotten, but so many times, that is what happens. I wonder if anyone in our class has had a positive experience with learning or being taught the Declaration? Can anyone remember reading it in its entirety? Let me know because I'd be curious to see!
    --Katie B.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:53 PM  

  • Summing up everything I've read here, I would have to say that TJ is a "Jack of all trades but a master of none" - except for an uncanny ability to take shots at people and things he sees around him. Now, I'm not implying that these "whistleblower" types aren't important to society and haven't played an integral role in improving society throughout history, in fact, my implications are quite to the contrary. Indeed, if it weren't for over-observant, pompous, criticizing assholes like TJ, all buildings would still look like brick-kilns and we wouldn't know that the hottest part of the day is around 4 o'clock.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:04 PM  

  • I enjoyed re-reading this text as a college student instead of a high school junior. I noticed more about the structure of the writing than I had in the past. Jefferson's argument is precise and convincing much like a lawyer’s closing argument. I thought the passages discussing King George III that began in “he” were especially powerful. Jefferson is very sure of the truth of what he is writing and this comes across well in the text. If I had read this with no prior knowledge I would have been convinced of what he was claiming, primarily by the way he structured his written argument.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:20 PM  

  • The Declaration of Independence was and is a great standing document that we still have and hold to be true. However I find that the principles that are behind the Declaration are somewhat lacking. It was written by people that were wealthy and white. There is no voice in the declaration that speaks for minority people or people with disibilites. I find it hard to believe that there are still people that are totally okay with the document. As I siad earlier the document is great in theory, but only in theory and not in practice. I have no idea how a few white representatives that reside in the U.S. are representative of the feeling of the whole U.S. at that time. There are no black people, Native American people, or any other people represented in this document. Furthermore, I was taught the Declaration, but now that I reread it as an adult I am appauled at the idealogy that the document represents.

    Alexis K.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:21 PM  

  • It was really interesting reading the Decalaration of Independence for the first time. Certainly there are things that people can critique T.J. on in regards to his lack of respect or acknowledgement for that matter, to the minority groups of society. But, at least he stood up and took charge. So many times, nobody will do anything about a problem, but when someone does, they will critique it. In reality, I probably did not do a great job of rubbing the texts together; I really was not engaged with the Virginia stuff. One more thing: I do like the interaction of the web log, and using the technology for class that the students are using in recreation. Alright.

    Jeremy

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:40 PM  

  • I too enjoyed reading the Declaration of Independence again, because I do not think I have read it since middle school. It was especially interesting to read it with the other piece by Jefferson about his views on minorities. He says that all "men" were created equal, but then goes on and on about the differences between white and black people and how black people are inferior. It really is sickening to see that these views were prevalent at the time period (and even sadder to think that they may still be present today). When discussing how minorities are inferior in things such as artistic talent, I found Jefferson pretty dumb. He did not even take into consideration the different opportunities that the different races have had throughout their lives, and he did not see how this would effect things such as artistic ability. He says that they were all born in America and American culture has that, so they have the same opportunity to be talented, but this is not true at all. He also groups everyone of a certain race together and thinks that they all are the same, which is very frustrating. Reading these two texts together was very interesting because if you just read the Declaration of Independence, you might think that Jefferson knew the "right" thing to do, and if you read his other piece alone you would call him a racist. To read the two together gives you a much better understanding of who he was and what he truly meant when he said that all men were created equal. I do remember learning that he was really only talking about white men, but this fact can be forgotten when reading the Dec. alone. I think it would have been much more helpful to read something like this with the Dec. in school because it really shows the thinking of the men who wrote it and you can see easier the truth behind what was meant by this document.
    -Alison

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:15 PM  

  • Yes, it may be slightly hypocritical of Thomas Jefferson to refer to all people as being "created equal" and at the same time being one of the nations most prolific slave owners, but he was at the same time giving our nation a giant nudge in the right direction (to say the least), albeit a nudge in favor of White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. It is almost as if in his writing of the Declaratin of Independence, that Jefferson didn't even consider minorities to be human beings. This fact is a sad one, but given the time period, it is hardly surprising.
    It is with absolute conviction that I can say the Declaration of Independence is something that every American student should read and understand in the context of our nation's history. But for some reason the consensus among the students in this class is that this is not the case in most public school systems. How is it possible that such an important piece of literature is not studied by most students until their college years?

    ~Joey~

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:42 PM  

  • OK, let's see, how to venerate TJ without glazing over the fact that he's a racist muttonhead...

    The Declaration of Independence, like many of our founding documents, is of particular importance and relevance because of its careful wording. TJ is careful to note that "all men are created equal," for instance. Absolutely he was referring to his rich, white, land-and-slave-owning buddies, but he left the door open to some degree. "All men" to TJ meant quite a bit less than it does to us today. I'm not absolving him of his ignorance (which, I might argue, based on his musings on black physicality, is more than just ignorance, it's ugly preference bordering on complete dismissal), I'm only saying that his words might still be upheld today once we insert our present-day preferences for who they protect. Like, you know, everyone.

    All that said, I'll hop back to 1776 to say, my God, what a ballsy slap in the face! "...That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved." Can you imagine a sputtering, red-faced King George III trying to respond to that? He'd have started pointing nukes this way had he had the facilities to do so.

    Sadly, like many of you, I was never taught the DoI in school. In fact, I'd never read the entire thing until I had to post about it here. I agree with a previous poster who said that it should always be presented with Jefferson's musings on blacks. I mean, what a total crock of shit, right? Without advancing any bizarre conspiracy theories, it's pretty clear that we don't have public schools around for the purpose of breeding dissent...

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:59 PM  

  • How is it that Thomas Jefferson wrote that "all men are created equal," however he does not believe it himself? He contradicts himself in that he pretty much talks about in the second reading that all men are NOT created equal.
    I want to know how the guy was president yet he cannot even spell. Nice to know!
    Normally I would have been convinced by what he is saying, but I cannot get past the fact that he completely flip flops.
    Kirbee

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:54 PM  

  • It seems to me that Thomas Jefferson thought he just knew everything about everything. For example:
    "A black, after hard labour through the day, will be induced by the slightest amusements to sit up till midnight, or later, though knowing he must be out with the first dawn of the morning."
    Give me a break. This just sounds like every adolescent or drunk person I know. I think this article is hard to read because it is so outrageously politically incorrect. It makes me think twice about the founding fathers of this nation. I mean think about where their morals lie.
    Sara C.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:38 PM  

  • Of course, we all know about the Declaration of Independence, and how historical and useful and wonderful and timeless and historical and wise and useful and old and blah blah blah it is. But, that wasn't the focal text for me when I read these documents. The interesting text for me was Jefferson's musings on blacks.

    Here we have a novel, not-well-known document featuring Jefferson basically employing the same voice he used in the Declaration of Independence to argue for the equality of blacks. This is what they didn't show you in US History class for fear of confusing the hell out of you. Jefferson's forceful, speaking-wholly-in-facts style of writing comes out strong here. The document appears to be arguing for blacks as at least partially equal to whites. However, modern readers can tell Jefferson's ideas are being held back by the stereotypes about blacks of the day. Jefferson attempts to speak of equality, but gets hung up on antique ideas like "blacks need less sleep" and "they secrete more from the kidneys." Ultimately, his ideas speak for equality, but it's a shame he was way ahead of his time. I have no doubt after "rubbing these two texts together" that Jefferson probably argued for emancipation of black slaves in the Declaration. Whether or not anyone listened to him is fairly obvious.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:45 PM  

  • Eek. Scrap my previous post. I seem to have read Jefferson's work entirely wrong. Given that I read it far too hurriedly, and thought the part about Greek slaves to be about blacks. The truth of this document is that it is ignorant, and racist, and argues for the continued slavery of blacks. Jeez, TJ, how could you have been so ignorant? I think it's at least important to note how an educated and important historical figure could be so caught in the mire of racism and closed-minded thinking.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:14 PM  

  • Yikes! It looks like we have a few heated responses to the Declaration of Independence. First, to go back a ways, I was fortunate to study this document a little bit in high school. For a history class, we were required to memorize the second paragraph. I will admit that if my history teacher came up to me today and asked me to recite this passage, I would probably have to laugh in his face. However, I still kind of liked the assignment. It forced us to put our own voice behind the beliefs and the passions of the men who started our country. It encouraged us to make a connection to the foundation of what our country stands for. It also led us to take ownership of our own political stand points. I think that it is terribly unfortunate that the Declaration of Independence is so often overlooked in schools.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:10 PM  

  • Isn't sad how much our country as a whole has lots connections to our roots?
    People may object to me using this exercise as a moment to voice my political convictions; however, I feel that in order for me to respond to the text honestly, criticism of US action is key.
    The US once was a shining light for democracy, for the sort of government that JEfferson outlined in the Declaration. But why don't we act accordingly today. Lebanon, for example, is a DEMOCRACY in the middle east; nonetheless, the US is allowing it to be attacked by Israel... Bush spews rhetoric about the spread of democracy all over the world, and yet he will often support autocractic states--Saudi Arabia, Pakistan--before he will struggling governments by the people.
    Isn't it ironic that so many of the criticisms that Jefferson lodges against King George III can be redirected against our maniacal George W? Take a few examples:
    "He has refused his Assesnt to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good"--namely, he has vetoed bills for Stem cell research, which could save millions of lives. (His sermons on the value of life ring empty here; Bush clearly does not value the lives of the young people he sends to war in Iraq and Afganistan; he clearly does not seem to be very disturbed that an estimated hundreds of thousands have died in Iraq by means of his zealous persuit of his parochial notions of security.
    Ultimately, I suggest Jefferson's solution to the problem of Bush and all of his elected supporters: "whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive...it is the Right of the People to alter it..." We must all vote in the congressional elections and get rid of these destructive, selfish, b-stards.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:13 PM  

  • I read the Declaration and then looked through Jefferson's writings about Virginia... and found his description of the slaves.

    Clearly, to "rub these two texts together" makes for some interesting insight. While one can read the Declaration and be inspired by Jefferson's claim to independence, his passion for his people, his bravery against the King, one can examine his view of the slaves and realize that he is pulling a "George III" stunt on another group of his own people.

    It just goes to show that in governmental writings the author tends to always have one type of audience in mind--for Jefferson it was his own people, the new Americans. This still goes on today, with the split political parties arguing for people like themselves, for the people THEY see suffering.

    There is always going to be a group of people being left out in the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Everyone has a different idea of what these terms mean, and who they should belong to.

    We should all look closer at what we read and dig deep to find who the author is fighting for and who the author is fighting against, in pieces such as these. This way we can determine our true feelings towards the text rather than pulling from an immediate reaction or assumption.

    Thomas Jefferson is on a historical pedestal today for what he achieved... what would the slaves of his time think if saw him on today's currency?

    - Kelly Hannon

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:43 PM  

  • ... I messed up. I thought his face was on one of our pieces of currency... guess I was wrong.

    Guess I still have more to learn!

    Kelly

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:50 PM  

  • Haha... he's on the nickel. I knew I was on the right track.

    Kelly

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:53 PM  

  • In comparing the two texts, it is clear that TJ has one audience in mind, which are the new settlers of America. All men are created equal, only if they aren't different and secrete more through the skin causing a disagreeable odour. What TJ is writing is purely non-sensical because he is basically contradicting all that he has voiced in the Declaration of Independence. Being an intellectual, he could have proposed more valid and substantial differences between the races but it seems as if he is insulting and belittling blacks even more by giving these explanations as reasons to why there should be no equal opportunity for blacks. They weren't provided the same opportunities for education, so of course there would be some discrepancies b/w them and the whites.
    -Jacleen
    The part that I hate the most is when he states, "The bill reported by the revisors does not itself contain this proposition; but an amendment containing it was prepared, to be offered to the legislature whenever the bill should be taken up..." He has no urgency in passing this bill and clearly he has no interest in passing the bill at all.
    I personally believe that this was a means of covering up his affair with Sally Hemmings and a way to keep her as a slave, as his property, only to lose her in his death.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:24 PM  

  • As probably the most influencial founding father, I am most intrigued by his idealism evident in the Declaration of Independence. It's hard for me to read that text without feeling inspired, proud to be American, grateful for TJ's insights.

    But then I read the second article, one that seemed to more acurately show TJ's true colors. So I am reminded of more modern political situations. How easy it is to take one speech, one document of one person and forever brand link him to that text (whether good or bad).

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:54 PM  

  • oops, forgot to leave my name on that last one.....
    Sara

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:54 PM  

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